Special report podcastWhy Quinton George was not on Brett Kebble's hit list |
Barry Sergeant's in depth interview with the man who possibly dodged a bullet.
BARRY SERGEANT: I'm in Johannesburg, it's July 29 2010. I'm speaking with Quinton George, managing director of Trinity Asset Management in Cape Town. Quinton, we are going to try and find out or investigate why you were not on Brett Kebble's hit list. Now, for anyone not familiar with the facts to date, we've seen in court this week, the trial of Glen Agliotti, who is already a convicted drug trafficker. He is accused of murdering Brett Kebble on September 27 2005. We're going to be mentioning that quite a lot here in our conversation. What we've heard this week is, three of the witnesses that are gambling to get state immunity, have admitted, in the one instance, Mikey Schultz, to shooting Brett Kebble and two of the others Nigel McGurk and Faizel, better known as "Kappie" Smith - they went down to Cape Town and they arranged for the shooting, as opposed to murder, of Steven Mildenhall, who was chief investment officer at Allan Gray. Then there's another charge where Glen Agliotti is charged with a conspiracy to murder four people: Mark Wellesley-Wood, ex-TRD Gold, Mark Bristow, then and still chief executive of Rand Gold Resources, Steven Mildenhall, who wasn't murdered as such but he was shot and the fourth one and this one might be a surprise, is Jean Nortier. Now, this is where your involvement becomes very specific, off we go back to April 11 2005, at that stage, Trinity in conjunction with Aflease, where Jean Nortier was chief financial officer, held roughly 30% of Rand Gold and Exploration. On August 1 2005, Brett Kebble was sacked as a chief executive of Rand Gold and Exploration and also Western Areas and JCI. Let's go back to April 11 2005, where Trinity and Aflease joined to requisition Rand Gold and Exploration to hold a general meeting. Quinton, what were you guys after?
QUINTON GEORGE: Barry, we obviously, as an asset management company, had what for us was quite a material stake in Rand Gold and we'd also facilitated Aflease acquiring a stake in Rand Gold, as a way of them raising capital to build their uranium mine. So, we were also stakeholders in Aflease and we wanted to see the company capitalised and start building a mine. We also wanted to look after our investment in Rand Gold, there had been a lot in the press at the time about the Rand Gold resources shares, we wanted to invest in Rand Gold resources and being based in South Africa, the only way we could really do it was through Rand Gold Exploration. When there was the furore about linked shares and having options to buy them back, we really wanted to get an understanding as to what the value of Rand Gold Exploration was and what was left in it. We had about 15% of Rand Gold, Aflease had about 15%, so jointly, 30% and we felt that one of the only ways that we would actually get to the bottom of it was if we requisitioned a shareholders meeting and made it a matter of record. I think our requisition that we put forward had something like 40 questions. We wanted the auditors there, we wanted a really thorough explanation and detailed account as to what the state of the business was, to protect our investments and to protect the re-capitalisation of Aflease at the time.
BARRY SERGEANT: So, Quinton, at that stage, April 11 2005, Aflease and Trinity joined forces. If you look at the list of questions and go through the detail, it's quite clear that you had huge concerns about the liquidity of Rand Gold and Exploration and also, the very nakedly visible debt and obligations in regard to JCI, which was Kebble's flagship. Would that be a correct summary so far?
QUINTON GEORGE: Yes, definitely. I think you can look back even further and you can look at a precedent that had been set, I think a year or two before, I don't know the exact date, where they had actually merged JCI Gold and Consolidated African Mines, which was called CAM at the time. There were some crossed-debts between the companies and as a way of eliminating the inter-company debts, they'd merged the companies. Consolidated African Mines turned into JCI Limited and JCI Gold became a subsidiary. My suspicion is, probably Brett had an idea that the only way to sort out even bigger inter-company loans between JCI and now Rand Gold, which at one point he controlled and JCI controlled it, was to look at a merger between the two companies. We'd previously facilitated an empowerment transaction and one of the supposed funders was going to be JCI, I think our experience on how they behaved and the fact that they hadn't come through with obligations from our perspective, we felt that the safest investment in the group would be Rand Gold, which is where the assets were.
BARRY SERGEANT: Right.
QUINTON GEORGE: Obviously when one looked at the comments in the press, one looked at the financial statements that were out and the position of the business. We just wanted to make very sure that those assets were at least obtainable from the company's perspective and that our choice to look at a merge of the two companies, if we chose not to do that, at least, there's a value that would remain within Rand Gold. I think it was the prospect that there wasn't the enthusiasm to merge Rand Gold and JCI than there had been a year or two before, to merge JCI Gold and CAM and obviously that posed a very big problem for Brett.
BARRY SERGEANT: Now, when you sent that letter of requisition, April 11 2005, there was 14 days for Rand Gold Exploration, in other words, Brett Kebble to react. What was the reaction, what happened next?
QUINTON GEORGE: Well, clearly he wasn't happy and if I recall, there was a technicality and we had to re-requistion the meeting because of some technicality. So, it probably took just over a month for us to finally get to the point where down to a day or two before he was supposed to requisition it, he indicated that it was never the intention to do a transaction with Aflease, where they ended up as strategic shareholders. It was always rather a transaction to capitalise the business and look at raising the money through the share swap.
BARRY SERGEANT: Right.
QUINTON GEORGE: What actually happened was, the opposite happened, where Aflease had issued shares to Rand Gold, the uranium market started taking off and the Aflease share price picked up and instead, Rand Gold sold the shares and they ended up with the money. So, we were in a position where, what was supposed to re-capitalise Aflease, they were almost forced into a position of having to behave as strategic shareholders. I think it was that realisation, where eventually Brett said, look, if he needed to do a transaction where he could get rid of the two of them, what did they want? Aflease clearly needed money and we signed an agreement in July, where Aflease had agreed to sell to an empowerment consortium, their block of shares, for cash. Trinity signed an agreement where we were happy to swap our Rand Gold shares at a specific ratio to Western Areas, which we also felt was a comparably good quality asset. At the ratio that we were going to do it on, we would've made our clients a lot of money.
BARRY SERGEANT: Well, okay but the point is, all the questions that you had penned up in April, those were basically never answered. We fast forward to July and that was a month where Allan Gray, which is holding 25%, roughly, of JCI, Rand Gold and Exploration and also Western Areas, was having very detailed discussions with Investec because it had become clear to anyone watching the story, that JCI had to be bailed out. As far as Allan Gray was concerned, the condition was that Brett Kebble would have to go and that of course, July, was a month where Steven Mildenhall was shot in Cape Town, during the currency of these negotiations. As we heard in court this week, Brett Kebble was fully aware of what Steven Mildenhall was up to and he sent two people down there, who hired two other people, who shot Steven Mildenhall, outside his front door. It's an absolutely horrifying story. Anyhow, on July 25, you sat down in Cape Town with Brett Kebble and Jean Nortier and you signed a conversion agreement. That meeting was one where Jean Nortier was, if I understand it correctly, he was leading the charge and he put Brett Kebble under a lot of pressure. What is your recollection of that meeting and what impression did you have of how Kebble regarded you and Jean Nortier?
QUINTON GEORGE: Look, obviously, it was five years ago but he obviously wasn't happy and he was definitely very threatened. I think he was well aware that Jean had not only something so juicy, juicy to the company but was also under extreme financial pressure because they had committed to building a mine. So, they really needed the R100mn, R120mn that they were looking for. From our perspective, we wanted to unlock as much value out of the investments and whether it was in Rand Gold or in Western Areas, which we were happy to convert into. We obviously, perhaps, didn't apply as much pressure for cash but we certainly were concerned for the investment and wanted to make sure we secured something for our clients that was of similar growth potential. So, he wasn't happy, he was very threatened. I think he realised he was out of rope, in terms of trying to promise things and I presume, he was probably upset with both of us as he was just with Jean.
BARRY SERGEANT: Okay now, the point being, July 25, the three of you to recap, sit down, have this meeting and everyone signs. Less than a week later, August 1, Brett Kebble is sacked by Rand Gold and Exploration, by JCI and by Western Areas and less than two months later, he is murdered. Why did he, allegedly, put a hit on Jean Nortier? A conspiracy to murder, that is a charge we saw in court this week and not you, why were you spared, so to speak?
QUINTON GEORGE: Look, I presume, the only reason that I can think of is that he was a friend of my father. I think my father, whose main life ambition is to change the world, I think his intention was to try and see Brett Kebble changed. He actually baptised him and was hoping that he would go through a metamorphosis as a person. I presume, maybe to an extent, that may have spared any anger focused at me but it was a difficult position because on the one hand, my father was trying to change him but on the other hand, I was fighting with him. Making sure that he didn't abuse our clients, it was a difficult relationship but I can only suspect that may have been something that could've prevented it. I guess, there may have also been anger within him, that what had been a move to try and protect and help Aflease by doing a share swap and giving them an asset and improving their balance sheet, turned out to be a strategic position and gun that was put to his head. So, I presume, that there was probably a higher degree of anger towards Aflease and particularly, Jean, for that. That's the only explanation I can use.
BARRY SERGEANT: You mention the baptizing. Your father, Peter George, when was that, more or less, that he baptised Brett Kebble.
QUINTON GEORGE: It was probably two or three months before he requisitioned this meeting.
BARRY SERGEANT: Okay.
QUINTON GEORGE: I think at a time when there was a lot of pressure about what was happening with the shares, the certainty of the Rand Gold shares. So, I think it was probably earlier in the year.
BARRY SERGEANT: Right. Quinton, there's one name we haven't mentioned so far, Neal Froneman, throughout this period, he was a chief executive officer of Aflease. Why, in the same sense, was he spared Brett Kebble's hit list? Was it because he was not directly involved in these negotiations?
QUINTON GEORGE: Yes. No, Neal wasn't directly involved, he was more focused on building the mine. I don't think Brett, necessarily, wanted to wipe out everybody around him. I just think there were a few parties that had found, when he was under acute pressure, perhaps, were applying a bit more pressure and creating more discomfort in his life than most people. There was obviously a history between Rand Gold and Harmony at the time. I know he was reasonably upset with Neal, looking to grow Aflease into a uranium company and doing transactions with parties that historically, in his mind, were the enemy. From our perspective, we just wanted to see the investment grow and the company grow. We'd always taken a view of backing management and backing Neal. Even to this day, we reasonably big investors in the gold business, gold one and have the utmost faith in him but I think at the time, Jean was definitely the tip of the sword, which is why he received the brunt of the reaction.
BARRY SERGEANT: Okay. Given the disclosures in court this week and the trial is not finished, so there might be some interesting, further information that comes out of it. We know, based on the evidence that was given, that Brett Kebble, through intermediaries, hired these two characters to go to Cape Town, where Steven Mildenhall was shot. Do you think this apparent hit list, assuming that it means more than just having somebody shot in the shoulders. Assuming it means a fatal shooting, do you think, the way you knew Brett Kebble, do you think he would have gone through on any of these so-called hits or would you say, it was more like a wish list?
QUINTON GEORGE: That's a tough question to ask. Clearly, Steve Mildenhall was shot.
BARRY SERGEANT: Yes.
QUINTON GEORGE: Clearly, if you look at the history and it's exhausting, it's nice to know it's behind us. The history of Rand Gold and the financial mess that the group was in and Brett was in. Under those circumstances, under that amount of pressure, one can understand, people can do anything. I definitely think Brett was a street fighter and he had a remarkable ability to survive. I think he was very clever but I also think he was desperate. I think it definitely could have been a desperate attempt to try and protect his group and to that extent, and himself. He may have been prepared to go to any lengths, whether it was a hit list, a wish list, a threatening list, he clearly activated something.
BARRY SERGEANT: Okay. So, if I understand that correctly, if you were asked the question, do you believe that Brett Kebble organised, his so-called assisted suicide, you would probably say no?
QUINTON GEORGE: Look, I thought we were talking about the hit list in terms of Jean and the different people.
BARRY SERGEANT: Sure, sure.
QUINTON GEORGE: I definitely think he was behind that, I have no doubt about that.
BARRY SERGEANT: Yes.
QUINTON GEORGE: Whether he was behind assisted suicide, I don't know that it was an assisted suicide. My suspicion is, perhaps he had moved from a position of being a position of being an asset to a position of being a liability and hence the threat.
BARRY SERGEANT: Yes.
QUINTON GEORGE: So, I think he was clearly shot, we know that. To the extent that I think he arranged it, I don't believe that.
BARRY SERGEANT: Yes, because essentially what is being claimed in court this week, is that he actually put himself on his own hit list. I knew Brett Kebble as well and I would go with your interpretation of events, that knowing him for what he was, he wouldn't have done that kind of thing. He wouldn't have put a hit on himself, it just does not make any sense, knowing his character and personality. Quinton, one final question, do you feel, if you believe the disclosures in court this week, that you're getting to some point of closure on this very, very difficult period?
QUINTON GEORGE: Look Barry, I think for me, a large degree of closure happened when a year or so ago, we actually disposed of our interest in Rand Gold and we swapped it in to a significant stake in Gold One. For me, a lot of closure came through that. So, we stopped spending time in court and money on lawyers and emotional time and stress. Looking at the whole Rand Gold stable but obviously its nice to see, from an individual and a personal level, it's nice to see this case finally being heard in court and getting its day in court. One really just wants to hope that the truth comes out. They say the truth sets you free. So, if the truth eventually does come out, it will be nice to know that people are free to move on and those involved can get on with their lives. As I said, for me, closure happened a year or two ago but we obviously watch it with a high degree of involvement because we spent a vast amount of resources and energy in the last three years.
BARRY SERGEANT: Quinton George, Trinity Asset Management in Cape Town, thank you very much indeed.
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