MONEYWEB: In the studio, continuing with our gaming theme, is Ernie Joubert - a 32% growth in gaming revenues at Emperors, an identical number that we heard from Gold Reef City. Is this because people are feeling richer that they can actually go and spend more?

ERNIE JOUBERT: Well, our group revenue growth was 32%, but of course in there are some non-comparable items like an additional few months of Emperors Palace interest that we bought from Caesars. And then, of course, a few months of Tusk. In other words, in the 2005 numbers - we only took over on the 1^st April.

MONEYWEB: We will get into the detail, but are people spending more money on gambling.

ERNIE JOUBERT: Growth for the group was more like 19.4%, which is still good. But I think in casino gaming, I was just saying to David earlier, the one thing that I've often mentioned to analysts and to the buy side, is the incidence. We've got to look at the incidence of casino gaming. It used to run in the old days in the region of 5% in Gauteng, then it crept up to 7%. Currently, according to the latest survey from the Gauteng Gambling Board, it's 10%.

MONEYWEB: What does that mean?

ERNIE JOUBERT: It means the number of adults that actually ever go into a casino to play.

MONEYWEB: So one-tenth of adults in Gauteng go to a casino?

ERNIE JOUBERT: Ever go. Now you compare that to participation in the national lottery, which is more like 53%. So that gives you an indication there's another form of gambling that attracts 53% interest from adults, while casino gaming only attracts, currently, 10%. Now with the continuous promotions and entertainment and new facilities and attractions that all the casinos are offering at their properties, you are forever increasing that market base. At Emperors Palace, for example, we have massive convention and exhibition and banqueting business. Every time a person gets to Emperors Palace for the first time - and it often happens still, by the way, and you can imagine with 10% incidence many people see it for the first time today, 10 years after opening -  they go, "Wow, this is cool, I must come here". So we are forever increasing our market base in addition to the economic factors that are currently favourable, as you know.

MONEYWEB: What was your investment in Emperors?

ERNIE JOUBERT: Right in the beginning, R1.25bn, and then later on we added the Mondeor Concorde Hotel at roughly R72m. We increased our casino gaming capacity for an investment of around R112m.

MONEYWEB: You're talking about R1.50bn?

ERNIE JOUBERT: Ja, call it roughly R1.5bn.

MONEYWEB: But that's old money?

ERNIE JOUBERT: And of course there was also compliance with smoking legislation. But call it R1.5bn old money - and replacement cost today R4bn.

MONEYWEB: R4bn! So that kind of puts into perspective the new Silverstar Casino that is going to be started by Gold Reef City right on the other end ...

ERNIE JOUBERT: Yes, they are talking R1.2bn, that's correct. Exactly right.

MONEYWEB: R1.2bn. So it's above ...

ERNIE JOUBERT: I don't know how much they are putting into hotels and so on.

MONEYWEB: That's on the West Rand, near Krugersdorp. You are on the East Rand, so it's not going to affect you at all?

ERNIE JOUBERT: No, it won't. Look, you will have a bit of duplication but, by and large, once it settles down it won't affect us.

MONEYWEB: The other thing that's so interesting about the gaming industry or the casino industry is that you guys are not scared to invest. Your debt is in fact bigger than shareholders' funds. Now there would be some people who say this kind of gearing ratio is high risk, but with the cash that you are generating it doesn't seem to be.

ERNIE JOUBERT: Slightly more, R1.6bn versus R1.5bn. And we repaid R273m in the last year.

MONEYWEB: How long is it going to take you to repay Tusk, because that seems, on these figures that you've given us - and they are only for four months of the last year - to have been a very inspired investment?

ERNIE JOUBERT: Very good investment, with still lots of potential. So I think the pay-back is going to be a couple of years, five years maybe.

MONEYWEB: And these are casinos - the old Sun International casinos that they didn't want in the former homelands.

ERNIE JOUBERT: Plus the new ones are in Empangeni and Klerksdorp.

MONEYWEB: Klerksdorp's interesting?

ERNIE JOUBERT: Klerksdorp is doing very well. In fact in our group it's got the highest EBITDA margin.

MONEYWEB: In other words, the Klerksdorp guys are the worst gamblers?

ERNIE JOUBERT: No. At the moment, it's got a low cost structure, that unit, because they have not yet fulfilled all their bid commitments. So the margin I think will change once we've built the hotel and the convention facilities and so on and so forth. But at the moment it's run as basically a casino facility.

MONEYWEB: But Emperors, your East Rand operation, which used to be known as Caesers Palace, that is still three-quarters of your profits overall?

ERNIE JOUBERT: 71%.

MONEYWEB: More than two-thirds. And what's next? To have that big cash cow there, giving you the capacity to go elsewhere - where are you going from there?

ERNIE JOUBERT: I can tell you that within the existing properties there is a full development programme in terms of new additions, refurbishments, re-branding, re-launches and so on. And at Emperors Palace there are still significant investment and growth opportunities. Don't ask me what, because then my colleagues will say I've given the secrets away. But as you know, I will be leaving the company now, but I am leaving it with a very comprehensive development programme within the existing units, let alone what could be available still in South Africa as a region. So I think Peermont Global as a company - which, as you know, we have privatised again and delisted - has a tremendous future over the next five years.

MONEYWEB: This is the last time we're going to talk to Ernie Joubert on this programme?

ERNIE JOUBERT: I don't know - depends on whether you are going to have any interest in what I'm going to do offshore.

MONEYWEB: And what are you going to do offshore, Ernie?

ERNIE JOUBERT: I'm going to start something new, and I will definitely offer an opportunity to the local investors that have supported me in the past, and other local investors - but I can envisage or imagine that they will also be international investors.

MONEYWEB: What about Sol Kerzner, linking up with him? Since the sad death of his son, he must be now looking to perhaps bring in someone younger?

ERNIE JOUBERT: I think Sol will say, "Why do I need him?"

MONEYWEB: At 71 he's got to be looking.

ERNIE JOUBERT: No, he's got his own management that has been built up over the last 10 years. No, I don't really think they will need me. If ever we talk about business, sure, I will have an open mind about it, but we are not talking and I don't really think any established company will think that they need me.

MONEYWEB: You might be surprised. Ernie Joubert, Peermont Global, has turned that into a substantial operation as well. And he's off, as he said, riding into the sunset.

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