MONEYWEB: Well, Dave, you'll remember Willem Heath - he's now an advocate, he was a judge. He was very much in the public spotlight in the nineties, with the investigations into corruption within government and so on. And then his unit was no longer required all of a sudden. He got a glowing report in After the Party, Andrew Feinstein's book about the investigation into the arms deal. He also looked in the whole Brett Kebble affair. But, before we talk to Willem, how do you think the public would view someone like him?

DAVID SHAPIRO: I still think he has a very good name in terms of what he has to say. The problem is that one never knows what to believe now. We have to get the government to believe what we have to say now, and government to start to listen and to start to clean up the mess that is really bringing down sentiment in this market, or in this country. To be honest, Alec, at this stage I have never seen people as depressed as they are about the situation in South Africa, and I don't say that lightly. I am very, very upset and concerned about what is unfolding in this country.

MONEYWEB: Well, Willem, perhaps you can help us through that and maybe give us some reason for optimism? Let me just sketch it for you. Jackie Selebi is the head of the South African Police Service. He is, by his own admission, a friend of a known drug lord and possible murderer called Glenn Agliotti. He's allegedly implicated in organised crime, and he is being investigated by the Scorpions. He is walking free - not only free, but very boldly and still in his job. We have on the other side of the fence Gerrie Nel, who's an advocate, respected, apparently, in the legal profession. He works for the National Prosecuting Authority. He's heading the team that's investigating Selebi. He was arrested two nights ago in his home, in front of his family, by 20 armed "goons", in Barry Sergeant's words. He apparently has been arrested for allegedly perjuring himself when he was giving evidence in a trial of corrupt Scorpions officials some years back. He's out on bail at the moment. In my homeland, the Kingdom of KwaZulu-Natal - some of us would have independence one day - we say "Hau!" What is going on here, Willem?

WILLEM HEATH: I think, first of all, you have got the problem of the unhealthy competition between the Police and the Scorpions, which is very bad for our country and for investigating and prosecuting crime. Therefore the arrest of Nel would always be tainted as a result of that. I do not know what the merits are against him. There are those allegations, and there have been allegations before against Nel - that he's corrupt and that he's been involved in fraud. But the fact of the matter is that he has conducted an intensive investigation into the activities of the Commissioner of Police. Now immediately you have got this activity by the Police to go and arrest him, which makes it extremely suspect. So even if there are merits in the case against Nel, the perception is that this is just vengeance or revenge by the Police.

MONEYWEB: And the timing?

WILLEM HEATH: The timing is unbelievably poor. So, if they have got a case, why didn't they do it properly and investigate it thoroughly before going against a high-profile person who's been involved in intensive investigations in South Africa? In the end, of course, it's quite possible that they might prove a case against him, but their conduct is inappropriate and the timing extremely poor.

MONEYWEB: Who is the person who might actually intervene here and knock a few heads together and say, "Surely the job of the Police Service and the Scorpions is to fight crime in South Africa, not each other"?

WILLEM HEATH: Well, I would imagine the starting point should be the two ministers involved, who should put their heads together and find a solution and tell the bodies: "Listen, you've got your own area of activities. Concentrate on that, stop blaming each other, stop investigating each other, and interfering in investigations." In the end, of course, if the President were to become involved, you would again find the allegations of political interference, which are rife at the moment and are probably going to be rife in the future as well. But that decision should be taken. There should be a decision, a final decision that the Scorpions are going to be incorporated into the Police. I don't say that's a good or a bad thing, but there must be a final decision. As long as it hangs in the air it actually takes away or interferes in the powers or the authority of the Scorpions. On the other hand, it creates the very breeding ground for the unhealthy competition to which I have already referred.

MONEYWEB: Willem, what are the chances - let's just say, for argument's sake, the Commissioner of Police is implicated in organised crime, that his friend, Glenn Agliotti, who clearly is a drug lord and alleged murderer, somehow pulled him into the net, how would that ever be proved and what would the consequences be?

WILLEM HEATH: Again, I've got serious doubts as to the extent of the proof or evidence that's been gathered by the Scorpions or the Police, because there are continuously the allegations between the two parties. One does not know what the value is of what each one of them has achieved or has not achieved. But once it's proved, for example, that Selebi is guilty of what is alleged against him, then it's almost inevitable that that will involve Agliotti. I personally would place very little value on the evidence of Agliotti - not only because of his history, but because of his involvement in serious crime. And therefore I would be hesitant to take the case to a court of law relying heavily on the evidence of Agliotti. I would want much stronger evidence than that. His evidence can be used in support of whatever is available, but I wouldn't give him the profile that he appears to have at this point in time as far as the case is concerned.

MONEYWEB: Willem, as ordinary South Africans, and David Shapiro often reflects the feeling of a particular part of the community, maybe the thought leaders, those who have got money in their back pockets, but even ordinary South Africans that you meet are very confused about what's going on here, not surprisingly. Is there any way that you could give them a message of some hope in this whole sordid saga?

WILLEM HEATH: I think things are changing slowly, and it starts actually with the man in the street. They are fed up with the whole situation, and they've started making noises. And, although it's going to take time, I think in the end it will be the public that will eventually raise their voice in a much stronger fashion than they have up to now. And, if that does happen, they would force the politicians to take the right decisions, they would force the agencies to do their jobs properly and to really prosecute criminal activity. At this point in time our criminal justice system is almost not operative at all. I'm in daily contact with the frustration that people experience as far as that is concerned. Either there's prosecution where there should not be a prosecution, or no prosecution. So often the question arises whether it's not due to any other hidden agenda, rather than the merits of the case. But the public is becoming more and more aware, and the very interview that we are having now, or the need for such an interview, is an indication that there's going to be a backlash sooner or later.

MONEYWEB: Willem, just to close off with - and I'm sure that there are a lot of people who are scratching their heads and saying, Nee, man, ek is net gatvol vir hierdie storie - what can ordinary South Africans do?

WILLEM HEATH: Well, the typical thing that all the citizens can do is namely to get together, to mobilise themselves, and start to give instructions to their political parties. Once the public is mobilised - and I've seen that in other areas - the mobilised have got strong power, they have actually got overriding power. But it's very difficult to mobilise the public because of the serious divisions in our communities.

ABOUT THE INTERVIEWER