Tuesday, 09 February 2010
Loading...
Advanced search 

Politics blog

Aristotle on Mugabe


James Myburgh
18 July 2007 00:00

What he can teach us about the crisis in Zimbabwe

At each stage of the unfolding catastrophe in Zimbabwe it has been tempting to believe that the situation could get no worse; and, if it did, this would result in President Mugabe's exit from power. Or, if not that, he would finally recognise that it was in his own interests to do no more harm to his country. On the Guardian website there are references to the "endgame" of Mugabe in 2002, 2003, 2004, and 2007.

Yet not only has Mugabe been unrelenting in his efforts to bring ruin to his country, but the prospect of his overthrow seems as distant as it ever was (if not more so). To understand why this is, one must first recognise Mugabe for what he is - or at least, has become - namely a tyrant. I use this description not as an epithet but as a way of seeing.

A tyrant, Aristotle wrote in Politics, "has no regard to any public interest, but only to his private ends." There is "no wickedness too great for him." Tyranny combines the vices of democracy and oligarchy. Its end, as with oligarchy, is wealth "for by wealth only can the tyrant maintain either his guard or his luxury." From democracy, meanwhile, tyrants have "borrowed the art of making war upon the notables and destroying them secretly or openly."

The methods with which Mugabe has entrenched his power since 2000 would have been familiar to the ancient world. The goals of the tyrant are simple: he must sow distrust among his subjects, he must take away their power, and he must humble them. Among the arts by which a tyrant preserves his rule are the following:

"[He] should lop off those who are too high; he must put to death men of spirit: he must not allow common meals, clubs, education and the like; he must be upon his guard against anything which is likely to inspire either courage or confidence amongst his subjects; he must prohibit literary assemblies or other meetings for discussion, and he must take every means to prevent people from knowing one another (for acquaintance begets mutual confidence)."

"A tyrant should also endeavour to know what each of his subjects says or does... for the fear of informers prevents people from speaking their minds, and if they do, they are more easily found out. Another art of the tyrant is to sow quarrels among the citizens...."

Mugabe has been very successful in applying these prescriptions. The white commercial farmers (the ‘notables') have been destroyed, and their urban equivalents are soon to be as well. Most ‘men of spirit' have been driven into exile. The judiciary has been suborned and the citizens can have no confidence that their rights will be protected in the courts. The Daily News, the main ‘literary assembly', was shut down long ago. CIO informers are everywhere and seem to know everything.

Through violence, intimidation, and vote-rigging, the Zimbabwean people have been deprived of their power to vote his regime from office at the ballot box. And after three stolen elections they seem to have lost courage as well. As Aristotle observed, if the people "are always kept under, they will learn to be humble." The opposition Movement for Democratic Change quarrelled and is now divided.

Yet surely economic collapse will precipitate revolution? This is not necessarily so. Aristotle writes that to preserve his power the tyrant "should impoverish his subjects; he thus provides money for the support of his guards, and the people, having to keep hard at work, are prevented from conspiring."

There is a terrible logic to these actions. The tyrant humiliates his subjects for he knows that "a mean-spirited man will not conspire against anybody"; he sows distrust among them for he cannot be overthrown "until men begin to have confidence in one another"; and, he tries to ensure that they are "incapable of action, for no one attempts what is impossible, and they will not attempt to overthrow a tyranny, if they are powerless."


After eight years of repression the opposition forces in Zimbabwe seem too weak to effect a change in government. Tyrants can also be brought down through internal divisions within the ruling clique. But, so far, Mugabe has proved more than capable of dealing with those in ZANU-PF who wish to displace him. It is characteristic of a tyrant, Aristotle wrote, "to distrust his friends, because he knows that all men want to overthrow him, and they above all have the power."

Since the worse things are for Zimbabwe, the better they are for Mugabe, the crisis in that country is not going to resolve itself. The initiative for change is probably going to have to come from without. Crucially, South Africa has to reverse its existing policy of public (and private) support for ZANU-PF. You only need to read the government press in Zimbabwe to see how this is used by the regime to undermine the courage and confidence of the populace there.

For example, on March 30, after his return from the SADC summit, Mugabe claimed that Mbeki had told the meeting: "If we condemned Zimbabwe, the same methods would be used by the West against us. The view of these white people is that all leaders of liberation movement parties must be removed and replaced by puppets."

In May, after SADC's mediation process was launched the ZANU-PF cabinet minister, Emmerson Mnangagwa, taunted opposition MPs in parliament by telling them that Mbeki was requiring the MDC both to "accept and recognise that President Robert Mugabe is the president of Zimbabwe and he won the [stolen] 2002 elections" and to "denounce violence." Mbeki had, Mnangagwa continued, set "no conditions" on ZANU-PF's participation.

Earlier this month the Zimbabwe Herald reported that Mugabe had told a public meeting that on the last official visit to South Africa by the then British Prime Minister, Tony Blair, Mbeki had told Blair "to back off from meddling in the affairs of Zimbabwe as SADC was handling the matter."

The South African government has, for whatever reason, chosen not to contradict these reports. In any event, whether they are true or not they serve their intended purpose. The message the Zimbabweans are hearing is this: Within SADC and the African Union you are morally isolated and alone. South Africa is on our side.


Print icon  Print story Email icon   Email story Feeds icon  Subscribe to Feed




Comment on the story »

View disclaimer
 
 responses to this article

Bob is cool
I rate Bob as one of the best, he has killed, destroyed, violated more than apartheid ever did and he is well supported. Amazing what you can do if your black in Africa.
He is the ultimate puppet soon there will be nothing to resist the . .more

by Point and laugh on July 18 2007, 08:26
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

T-Bone & Mugabe are conjoined twins, joined at the R***** that is ..

by pamplona on July 18 2007, 09:29
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it



by ARISTOTLE CANT TEACH MUGABE NOTHING AS MUGABE ALREADY KNOWS EVERYTHING AND MBEKI CAN VOUCH FOR HIM. on July 18 2007, 11:56
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it



by THE SA GOVERNMENT HAS NO B@LLS AND IT IS CLEAR TO SEE THAT ANY ISSUE IN THIS GOD FORSAKEN CONTINENT TURNS TO RACE LIKE H I V ISSUE, THE CRIME ISSUE, THE ZIMBABWE ISSUE - EVERYTHING IS BLAMED ON THE WHITE BOOGIE MAN....WELL...I SAY, LET THEM HIT ROCKBOTTOM JUST LIKE MOZAMBIQUE, ANGOLA AND ZAMBIA BEFORE THEY REALISE THAT THEY ARE THEIR OWN WORSE ENEMY on July 19 2007, 11:23
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

lol
yeah the chinese are already setting sail for the new world!!! our northerly neighbours will now have an oriental slant to them... zimBOBwe will soon be the hardest working nation in Africa (not exactly hard to be, but anyway...)

hahaha :)

by John on July 18 2007, 14:26
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

The important part...
... of mr Myburgh's article is the last paragraph.
Zimbabwe is finished but like the proverbial headless chicken has not finally lain down in the dust yet.
Any vestigial support which anybody can show for anyone in Zimbabwe has . .more

by Plutarch on July 18 2007, 08:41
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

So much for quite diplomacy

So according to Aristotle then, the pipe smoking Potemkin giant therefore has adopted policies that serve to strengthen and entrench the position of despot Bob?

I wonder is Machiavelli would have agreed with . .more

by Jack on July 18 2007, 09:14
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Whites living like royalty in Zim

Very interesting comment suggesting that any white person in Zimbabwe who is living comfortably can only be doing so for one of two reasons:
a/. he is a crook
b/. he has links to Mugabe.

Well, I had dinner on Saturday . .more

by Jack on July 18 2007, 09:33
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

I think you are taking things too far
Princes of the royal Blood are well known for the practise of "Sowing wild oats" and there is no doubt that young antipodean ( do S A and Zi m qualify as antipodes?) ladies look quite enticing in short skirts, sunbronzed skin, and vigorous mammary . .more

by Plutarch on July 18 2007, 09:47
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Don't be too quick to judge!
Chelsea's father is Charles Davy, an entrepreneur in Zimbabwe. He is a remarkable character and a self-made man - try googling him. He started his career during the bush war, went bankrupt when terrorists rustled cattle off his ranch yet paid back . .more

by anonymous on July 18 2007, 12:02
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

yes
I agree with most of what you say and acknowledge that many men have put up a huge fight to protect their business, their staff, and their respectability.
I am afraid, though, that in the current situation it is not good enough to keep one's . .more

by Plutarch on July 18 2007, 12:32
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it



by well said, the Zim situation moves faster in a week than what most experience in a lifetime, don't be too quick to judge you sanctimonious P**** on July 18 2007, 13:07
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

agh hame, poor oke - i'll bet, like all other zimbo's, he has a healthy stash abroad

by anonymous on July 20 2007, 14:30
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it


my goodness - are both the remaining whites in Rhodesia really wealthy

by Farg Orff on July 20 2007, 14:26
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it


Smoke and mirrors
It is obvious now more than ever before that there are rather sinister alterior motives behind the SA position on Zim. Whatever these may be, Mbeki and his shamwaris should be very sure that they know something the rest of us mortals don't. When the . .more

by horsetrader on July 18 2007, 08:55
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it


Is it not perhaps a question of Mbeki and Co simply thinking that the MDC is not fit to govern and even if they wished for a replacement, the MDC is not it? Secondly is it not perhaps a question of Mbeki and Co simply waiting for Zimbabwe to fimally . .more

by A question for horsetrader on July 18 2007, 09:31
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it



by then the US did actually go in and effect regime change? on July 18 2007, 09:39
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

The US has no interest in Zim. There is no OIL in Zimbabwe!

by anonymous on July 18 2007, 16:21
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

This is an obvious first impression of a possible modus operandi but I fear there is more to it than...
There are more than enough natural riches in SA and BEE opportnities to occupy even the most energetic opportunist without having to focus on destroying a neighbouring country simply to possibly pick up some good assets (assuming these were left . .more

by horsetrader on July 18 2007, 10:15
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it



by Rhodesia almost became the 5th South African province in 1924 or so, rejected by referendum, maybe it will happen in 2008 as Zim is wiped out & our companies go in to sort it out? on July 18 2007, 11:18
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it



by THE CRISIS IN ZIM WILL AFFECT CRIME LEVELS ETC BUT WILL NEVER BE A REASON FOR ANY BLACK TO VOTE THE ANC AS PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY DO,AND WILL FOREVER, VOTE ON COLOUR-BLACKS ESPECIALLY FEEL INDEBTED TO MUGABE SO NOTHING WILL CHANGE FOR YEARS on July 18 2007, 11:59
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it


Good article.
"The only thing we learn from history, is that we never learn from history"

by Swordfish on July 18 2007, 15:10
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Question for Mr Myburgh
Not being a fan of Aristotle-- I tend to take showers rather than baths and I don't therefore have floating ducks waddling around the place proving the laws of displacement-- I wonder how he would have commented on S.A.'s refusal to set up refugee . .more

by Cassandra on July 18 2007, 09:25
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Quiet diplomacy

“the smokescreen of expediency and deceit behind which secretive self-serving deals are made”



by Jack on July 18 2007, 10:27
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Now that's much better Cassandra. I do however disagree with a few points raised by my fellow Moneyw...
readers and contributors. Firstly, out of compassion for humankind ,I feel sorry for all the "innocents" that are trapped in that situation. There are men, women and children who were too young to vote or born after voting took place who are not . .more

by Basil on July 18 2007, 11:35
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

the point is, I think
that our government has absolutely no intention of registering these people and making efforts to find employment for them.
Further, there IS no employment other than as menial labourers earning a pittance and our labour laws are such as to . .more

by Cassandra on July 18 2007, 12:40
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Cassandra, I sincerely hope you're wrong although nothing in Africa surprises me anymore ( political...

by Basil on July 18 2007, 14:06
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

To Basil
(not to offend - but to ruthlessly push through a point).

Sure - put your money where your mouth is and immediate take in 20 refugees in your backgarden to set an example of practicing what you preach -we'll observe and if it works out . .more

by Plodder on July 18 2007, 20:24
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Point taken and as a matter of fact I do have a number of Zimbabweans working for me at present.
I have assisted where I can to legalise them and get them work permits and so on. They interact well with my other staff but of course I never just willy nilly took anyone onboard but where they fitted the profile I was looking for and they happened . .more

by Basil on July 19 2007, 12:53
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Misunderstanding
don't suppose this blog is still on air on Monday but I could not help to notice my point was not taken. I did not mean employ Zimbabweans - I meant take them indiscriminately and let them squat in your backyard (at home). We would also like to fit . .more

by Plodder on July 20 2007, 19:46
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it




Aristotle wasn't really into practical work - more of an arty type.

by I think you mean Archimedes on July 18 2007, 19:32
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

yes I do
I was thinking about it last night ( in the bath) and had a Eureka moment

by Cassandra on July 19 2007, 06:55
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

So then Cassandra, you do bath?

I thought you only showered. Bath is better for inspiration he?



by Jack on July 19 2007, 11:14
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

dripping wet
Surely you agree that it is frequently "the exception which proves the rule'?

by Cassandra on July 19 2007, 11:27
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Your regimen

Dear Cassandra,

In the spirit of Africa I beg you not to be rigid in your approach to hygiene and titillation. If you wake up every morning to the sounds of chirping birds and the smell of coffee, you should note that even the sun . .more

by Jack on July 19 2007, 11:50
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it







by Evil prospers when good men do nothing. Evil = Mugabe, Good Men = SA??? on July 18 2007, 09:33
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

No no. To me RSA's ANC is looking like Mugabe's mini-me! Our economy is not as simple as Zim's so t...

by Free the Rand on July 18 2007, 11:08
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it



by zim was a horse, RSA is an elephant, they have the same cancer, just takes longer to die, rather simple actually .... on July 18 2007, 11:15
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it



by Zim also had a decade and a half of head start on July 18 2007, 11:55
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it





by ANC feels that repression is great as long as it is done by a black man, especially if Bob the "cadre/comrade/struggle hereo" is giving people like Mzi Khumalo and other ANC big wigs Gold Mines in Zim. on July 18 2007, 11:12
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

A Question or two....(okay six)
Is there any evidence at all that anyone in a position in our government to do something about Zimbabwe actually reads the logical arguments, the historical comparisons, and / or acknowledges the apparently significant groundswell of public opinion . .more

by Bruce on July 18 2007, 11:31
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

the really scary part of this
apply the Aristotle frame to Mbeki. Making senior colleagues humiliate themselves by claiming not to be after his job. Dividing the population using this funny structure of cosatu/anc/sacp. Making people jocky for position, but in such a way that . .more

by markus on July 18 2007, 11:46
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

In reply to Bruce ; the government of RSA know what is going on in Zim and some in the government
may even care. Like you are unable to stop the new law regarding the Boks or the land redistribution act they are unable to act without strong leadership. If the president says nothing because he too has reasons I will explain briefly further on, . .more

by Basil on July 18 2007, 12:33
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

perhaps
I think you might be according a greater intelligence to these gangsters than they have.
Personally I think the issue is driven by huge amounts of cynicism and a startlingly high degree of contempt for anything which Europe, the U.S. or the . .more

by Plutarch on July 18 2007, 12:47
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Plutarch one assumes a man has intelligence until he proves otherwise, surely they cannot be that
stupid? When Zimbabwe implodes the consequences will be disastrous for us economically and are already. They are right next door and so is the World Cup. Are we going to have Zimbabwean refugees waving placards and holding tin cups outside our . .more

by Basil on July 18 2007, 13:00
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

the World Cup
I don't give a toss about the World Cup.
I think it is a moronic expression of ridiculously stupid concepts of "national pride".
To pin so many hopes for employment on the World cup merely reveals the hoplessness of the situation.
If . .more

by Plutarch on July 18 2007, 13:17
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Plutarch, I don't give a toss about soccer either and agree on the point of expense for stadiums tha...
probably will end up not being used properly. The ANC seem to and my point was more aimed at them not realising what I said. The numberplate thing, better to leave it off, the fine is the same.

by Basil on July 18 2007, 13:47
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it




Does anyone else find it odd
that much of the contribution in these forums comes by way of strong criticism of the ANC Govt policies, or lack thereof, for a variety of reasons. Whether these views are right or wrong is irrelevant. What is key is that the present forumites . .more

by horsetrader on July 18 2007, 13:14
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

precisely
I was going to comment last week about the magical disappearance of all those Nubians who sanctimonously gloated about the "bleating whiteys" and informed us of the SAA and Qantas timetables to Australia.
Your point is interesting.
Could . .more

by Plutarch on July 18 2007, 13:20
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

to horsetrader and plutarch
no, absolutely. I've been wrong all this time. I'm cowering in my corner, under the table, devastated by the strength of analysis and poor English on this site. I don't have the courage anymore to defend.

It's just, when i read the . .more

by essop on July 18 2007, 13:59
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Carefull now Essop, we can get you fired if you upset us. Acess to power in Africa isn't the same
as access to power overseas. You may be the sheperd, we'll grant you that.

by Basil on July 18 2007, 14:12
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

well. Mr Essop
I must confess to being amazed at your attitude of nihilism and self hatred.
It's not that I find it unusual in someome like yourself but that, combined with a rather keen intellect I find that it sticks out like a boil on a bum.
Naturally . .more

by Plutarch on July 18 2007, 14:19
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Reply to essop
Of all the tens of millions of ANC supporters out there is this the best response to have emanated?

Essop, your response is truly disappointing. Unlike your response, my question was a polite, non-racial and geniune probe into the absence . .more

by horsetrader on July 18 2007, 14:52
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Reply to horsetrader
1) I suspect that not many black people read Moneyweb. OR
2) If your party "owns" two thirds of Parliament and is not likely to be replaced in the next 30 years (you can even change the Constitution, should you feel like it) are you really . .more

by Yellow submarine on July 18 2007, 16:11
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it



by anonymous on July 18 2007, 17:08
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it



by Anon: Too many spooks. Too many software monitoring programs monitoring internet usage in Govt Depts & Big Business. That is your answer. on July 19 2007, 16:30
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Essop
Murderers, rapists, hijackers, robbers also share a racial attribute!! Big willy, small brain.

by Passop on July 19 2007, 07:21
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it



Look in the mirror South Africans.

by SA is a mess & is going downhill (read the recent FM for details) so leave Bob alone, here in SA the same thing is happening. on July 18 2007, 13:29
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Zimbaweans were better off as Rhodesians
Blacks are just to racist to notice. If Mugabe had been a white, Rhodesia/Zimbawe would have been invaded a long time ago. The real trajedy is not that Mugabe is so evil (evil people are almost everywhere) but that he is tolerated by other black . .more

by Cattleman on July 18 2007, 13:30
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

What future is there given the above is true?

by You have laws in sa which say "you want brain surgery? here is a black doctor who is not so experienced or qualified but he will operate on you today because we dont employ whites or on merit anymore so the experienced white surgeon is no longer available". on July 18 2007, 13:35
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Two peas in a pod (Mugabe and Moyo)
And then we have this morning's interview on 702 (Ridi Dereko's 9am show) with none other than Professor/Dr Jonathan Moyo, former Minister of Information in Zimbabwe from 2000 to 2005, who has the gall to say that the brutality meted out to . .more

by Scribe on July 18 2007, 14:10
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it



by Moyo is simply a useless farkir on July 18 2007, 15:17
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it



by Jonathan Moyo is is just plain scum - a lying rat with no backbone. Don't understand how Redi could have him on the 702 show either? on July 18 2007, 16:45
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

James quote on the "tyrant"
This to me clearly discribes what the "apartheid masters" did. Some of whom died refusing to appear before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission

by Manzini on July 18 2007, 14:36
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Hmmm... not Manzini ex Amsterdam are you!

by Sinclair on July 18 2007, 15:17
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Sinclair
Just telling the truth...Just telling the truth!!!!

by Manzini on July 18 2007, 15:53
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Ay ay, chief!!!!

by Sinclair on July 18 2007, 16:26
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it





by Plutarch and Jack. You are both sanctimonious little twerps who unbeknown to you suffer from the same affliction as Mbeki, verbal diarrhoea. The one being of ‘clinicus’ strain and the other ‘poeticus’. on July 18 2007, 14:45
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it



by Swordfish - " the only thing we learn from history is that we never learn from history" on July 18 2007, 15:20
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

and you, on the other hand
prefer the strong silent masculine approach of sign language, and skop, skiet, & donder?
Presumably you have some opinion to give on the subject under discussion or are you suffering from that peculiar strain of South Africanitis which rants . .more

by Plutarch on July 18 2007, 15:24
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it



by There you go again, more diarrhoea. so who's doing the ranting here you twit! on July 18 2007, 15:53
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Steady on dear chap.
mmmm….not one of your better riposte’s Plutarch. Whilst I have no doubt that many a rugby fan suffers from this ailment, I have my doubts about them spelling the word correctly, or indeed calling it that. You also make wild assumptions! Maybe that . .more

by anonymous on July 18 2007, 16:18
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it


It's so sad - we all supported the ANC because it promised a better life for all.
The lunacy of repeating the mistakes already done so many times in history absolutely beggars belief. Not only that but we do not make it clear that the lessons of history are not learnt. Silent diplomacy it appears is support for a murderer. Let's . .more

by anonymous on July 18 2007, 16:06
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Morally and intellectually bankrupt, both of them.

by Only an idiot would have believed the ANC - or the Nats, come to that. on July 18 2007, 19:23
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Well said! Try and get that into the heads of these moral purists on MNY.

by nth_bridge on July 18 2007, 19:27
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it


ESSOP
Would you still be laughing should Mugabe do an IDI AMIN / UGANDA and expell your kin folk in zimbabwe? Or even for that matter this happens to you in S.A.

by concerned on July 18 2007, 17:17
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

we'll cross that bridge when we get there

by essop on July 19 2007, 16:11
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it



by Time for some SA blacks to lift themselves out of the scum and do something about this lunatic comrade of theirs. on July 18 2007, 19:35
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Actors on the global stage
Why does no one expand bit more about other actors on the global stage that helped Mugabe get into power?

Many articles focus on one particular person or organization since it is the source of an immediate threat. It is easy to write and . .more

by Plodder on July 18 2007, 20:06
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

The need to make a stand

It seems to me that we are all so interested in the way Zimbabwe is unfolding precisely because our worst nightmares are being confirmed. Not that our true concern is for the suffering of our neighbours. I suggest that what is emerging though . .more

by Jack on July 19 2007, 00:11
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Not exactly the truth Mr Jack.
It seems to me that you to, only wish to hear the truth, or dialogue, or clinical analysis that you want to hear. It seems to me sir that more often you read, yes, but do not actually listen. You make quick assumptions whether this fits into your . .more

by Obsie on July 19 2007, 04:18
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Another stab at truth then…

Please Obsie, don’t be so quick to ascribe human attributes to me…

My reference to the swimming and art lessons thing, that priceless snippet of proof of ghastly unfairness and overwhelming disadvantage, really refers to your . .more

by Jack on July 19 2007, 11:19
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

SELF LOATHING?YOU ARROGANT TART, JACK

by Jacqui B on July 19 2007, 16:34
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

A simple question for you Mr Jack.
Do you think we are ALL so collectively stupid (myself included) not to realise that Mugabe’s economic policies have been nothing but sheer tyrannical madness?

by Obsie on July 19 2007, 17:45
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it


Notions of democracy.
Ah, at last we are getting through the mush here Jack! Time to make a stand….it is after all your democratic right to do so, and I for one am thankful that since 1994 I can share this privilege with all South Africans. No fear of indefinite . .more

by nth_bridge on July 19 2007, 04:43
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

A hollow notion of democracy

As it was your choice to boycott your own education and development before ’94, so you refused to participate in any form of democracy that did not involve dominating all the people of the land.

The fact that we can't agree at all . .more

by Jack on July 19 2007, 11:26
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

You amaze me Jack...snap...you are so quick to stereotype!!
Pray, so explain your statement a little further please..."As it was your choice to boycott your own education and development before ’94, so you refused to participate in any form of democracy that did not involve dominating all the people of the . .more

by nth_bridge on July 19 2007, 16:07
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Mugabe did do something!
BUT the tyrant did the wrong thing, we all know that Jack! Wallowing in intellectual debate is going to lead us into exactly the same situation, as it actually does nothing in our context, it's all good couch potato stuff. I agree with nth, what do . .more

by Nicole on July 19 2007, 16:57
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it



by At the end of the day, Jack could best be described as an intellectual ja well no fine kind of guy. on July 19 2007, 18:28
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Responses

1. remember the slogan about matches and tyres? It was indeed ANC policy to sacrifice the education of the masses until after they had achieved their political goals.

2. I maintain that the ANC could have chosen a very different . .more

by Jack on July 20 2007, 00:52
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it







by You will only find meaningful debate here when you and your pals learn a little bit of tolerance and humility yourselves. As much as you would like to believe that you have these qualities, you don’t!!!! on July 19 2007, 05:08
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Humility sounds like meaningfull debate is only possible if
it goes in accordance with plenty of humiliation. The Concise Oxford Dictionary - Humble: 'Having or showing low estimate of one's own importance/make humble, bring low, abase oneself'.

Tolerance : like in if hit on left cheek - offer . .more

by Plodder on July 19 2007, 07:30
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Go Rob go, lead the way for Southern Africa, Give us a taste of SA's future! OR is there an answer....
The people have voted! For evil to get ahead, requires only good people to keep silent! How quickly South Africa forgets what tyrant leadership does to people's psych for generations (7-10 gerrations of free voting South Africans will still be . .more

by JWise on July 19 2007, 13:38
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

African nihilism?
I am intrigued by the implications of your paragraph which begins ...And that is why Africa...

If this is true one would have expected someone, over the last five hundred years or so, to have said, "this is bullshit.. we need a New . .more

by Plutarch on July 19 2007, 07:30
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Dear Plutarch
You have written well: you have been honest and your argument is clear - but it is only part of the story.
I once received a character assassination from somebody I'd been married to for more than half my life. It almost destroyed me because it . .more

by Jacqui B on July 19 2007, 10:58
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Goodwill
I am sorry you received a character assasination. Normally one has to judge those things from whence they come. In your case it sounds like it came from someone with an axe to grind. This, of course, does not make it any easier to ignore but there . .more

by Plutarch on July 19 2007, 11:26
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Jacqui
Jacqui, why should a person lie to himself/herself when the truth is so unambiguously clear?

by ? on July 19 2007, 11:47
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it


read Jack's answer to Ccassandra on why the African sun does not adhere to the highway code and you might appreciate that truth is but a moveable feast

by Plutarch on July 19 2007, 11:58
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Jacqui, I tend to agree with the goodwill and improving things for our childeren, however I believe ...
point Plutarch is making is that that goodwill and improving things you correctly speak of is not reciprocated. The average african in the street with whom most of us get to deal with is not the problem. The problem lies in the leading parties . .more

by Basil on July 19 2007, 12:10
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

well there's a thought, Basil!
Improving things for our children being a two way street.
I like!
I swear by the philosophy of a British child psychologist, Winnicott. He defined the 'Good Enough Mother' (the best any of us can hope for) as a woman whose children feel . .more

by Jacqui B on July 19 2007, 13:20
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Fair comment, I must say I never thought about your last sentence before.

by Basil on July 19 2007, 13:38
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Reply to Basil
Dear Basil

You speak about "goodwill which is not reciprocated." however, I often sit in fancy restaurants with my fellow white colleagues, all of which are people with post graduate qualifications and are supposedly educated people. Yet . .more

by Arsene Lupin on July 19 2007, 14:29
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Reply to Arsene Lupin
Dear Mr. Lupin

Did you know that Black waiters do not paticularly like to serve Blacks patrons. According to them; they tip bad and are very rude. Discourteous people will be rude no matter who serve them!

by M Leblanc on July 19 2007, 14:46
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Reply to Arsene Lupin, don't hangl one reaction or ten around the entire populations necks. In our b...
we put up with abuse because it is par for the course. No where else can you flirt with a waitress/ waiter as if it is your right or swear at them because your food is cold or not up to scratch or whatever. You go and buy a Porsche and the colour is . .more

by Basil on July 19 2007, 20:04
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it



Plutarch, the kindness of your reply was much appreciated

by Jacqui B on July 19 2007, 19:07
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it




At long last, somebody that actually understands Mugabe and the Zim situation. It's clear that all.....
...the ongoing talk of dialogue with the opposition, etc. (as suggested by the SA Gvt.) as a means to resolving the manifold problems in Zim (or indeed any other "solution" that does not have, as a prerequisite the exiting of Mugabe from the . .more

by Aristotle's Cousin... on July 19 2007, 15:25
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Tourism increase
Those tents in Northern province are NOT refugee camps.
It is almost Spring and travel is blossoming on the sub-continent.
We are happy and indeed proud that 2 million Zimbabweans have chosen to have camping holidays in South Africa and . .more

by Ronnie Mamwepa on July 19 2007, 15:34
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

BANTU EDUCATION, JACK
I started school in 1963. A small, middle class, co-ed, government school which cost my parents next to nothing.
Whilst the majority of SA kids were receiving 'gutter education', the apartheid government built us chosen few a large swimming . .more

by Jacqui B on July 19 2007, 17:21
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Bantu Education - I know too -
paid for 16 times more schools than whites had (double page article Max du Preez Vrye Weekblad ca. 1986, still send cut-out to my sister-in-law in Holland - the dolt still doesn't comprehend), from white taxpayers money.

Paid for Bantu . .more

by Plodder on July 19 2007, 19:29
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

In other words, what you are saying Plodder is that white is always right hey?! Personally, I witnes...

by anonymous on July 19 2007, 20:06
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

an extract from a speech delivered by Nelson Mandela in 1993
"The government's skewed education policies and the purposeful underdevelopment of our nations human resources have left South Africa with a legacy of of scientific illiteracy and a grave shortage of technical expertise which could strangle economic . .more

by Jacqui B on July 19 2007, 20:47
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Wait for it, we will get referred to the Bell curve now.

by Obsie on July 19 2007, 22:51
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Jacqui
Jacqui, you speak only half truths. Anyway, blacks have their chance now. Wonder why they drop education standards.

by Pragmatist on July 20 2007, 06:50
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it


Well there you go then!
If this comment isn't the height of racial arrogance, what is???...."painted a very different picture of indepth research being done what kind of education befited the Bantu the best at their level of know-how at the time". . .more

by nth_bridge on July 19 2007, 20:47
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it



by Plodder, you really should consider a retirement villa in Oranje. on July 19 2007, 21:43
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Retirement village - much too conservative for a radical like me
but thanks for the kind thought and a pleasant weekend!

by Plodder on July 20 2007, 15:08
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it


So where did we go wrong Jacqui B ?

Even the title should have prepared you. This article was about Aristotle’s philosophical analysis of tyrants and how it fits our observations of Robert Mugabe. The article then considers SA’s function in Mugabe’s tyranny.

The core . .more

by Jack on July 20 2007, 01:15
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

OK Jack, I hear you
I'm sorry and I didn't understand where you were coming from.
My comparison between a small percentage of South Africans who received a world class education, and the majority who were simply expected to accept something vastly inferior, does, . .more

by Jacqui B on July 20 2007, 05:15
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it




Sorry Jack, I don't buy it!
Like you, I also studied at Wits, infact my first year in ’77 was when the state sponsored murder of Steve Biko left Mr Jimmie Kruger “cold”. You remind me more of a Russell Crystal than a Tony Leon, I shared classes with both of them. . .more

by nth_bridge on July 20 2007, 03:33
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Liberation before education

I hope you are not taking that comment personally – I really referred to just one of the many self-serving policies of the ANC that has badly and unnecessarily compromised our people – the general policy of “Liberation before Education,” as . .more

by Jack on July 20 2007, 08:58
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

last thought, Jack
We don't all share your skill for intellectual debate.
I have on my bookshelf an excellent masters thesis on storytelling - written by somebody who shares your abillity, yet had the humillity to recognise storytelling as a an effective means of . .more

by Jacqui B on July 20 2007, 09:54
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

That was very kind Jacqui B

Some have accused me of being clinical to the point of arrogance but the truth is that I have had to work very hard at my communications skills – at school I was thought to have been a scientist with slight dyslexia when it comes to language . .more

by Jack on July 20 2007, 11:18
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Ok Jack, agreed...let's move on. Not to say I havn't been enjoying it though!

by nth_bridge on July 20 2007, 14:21
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

A final 2 cents worth from me Jack.
I live in Chicago now, moved here 4 years ago (an opportunity brought me, not a desire to leave SA).

The most compelling thing I see here is that American's love their Constitution. The content thereof precedes all national debate, it's a . .more

by nth_bridge on July 20 2007, 14:59
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

The ANC have proven, beyond any doubt, that education is no longer necessary if you want to gain wea...
Every second @rse-hole with high party connections is well on their way to becoming stinking rich - and they don't even need to work for it - just pitch up at the fodder trough that big-business is laying out for them. It's a disgusting shame!

by Gungets Tuft on July 20 2007, 14:24
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it


More than one liar - surprise!
Lying about bantu education. Ad hominem replies instead of ad rem.

Verwoerd - but they were taught maths and many other skills - (formal research done by the Dept. Education what is most suitable for the natives according to their current . .more

by Plodder on July 20 2007, 20:13
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Did the Dominee also tell you that dancing could lead to sex Plodder?

by nth_bridge on July 20 2007, 20:49
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Dominee & dancing - answer:- no. Ad hominem reply -
play the man, not the ball. Am not of Dominee nationality, havn't got time for the most of those turncoats- I believe in the rational mind (Carl Sagan's balooney detection kit). And a higher calling for the truth. Read Goethe's Faust. It might be . .more

by Plodder on July 21 2007, 07:42
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Oy Vey, Plodder
And I say this despite my old Ma being an Anglican priest. Ma has also reminded me that she and Pa worked tirelessly to raise funds for school swimming pools at both Golden Grove Primary and Westerford High. The Frank Joubert Children's Art Centre . .more

by Jacqui B on July 21 2007, 09:07
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Plodder, that should be play the ball not the man?!
Though I have a different historical perspective from Jack and Plutarch (and a very different one from yourself), I agree entirely with Jacqui’s assessment that they are correct regarding the dismal performance of the current government, and concur . .more

by nth_bridge on July 21 2007, 15:31
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

The way to move forward - by firstly defining FORWARD!
By carefully considering if there is a common grounds 'forward' amongst all people.

I pertinently do not think so. Logically then you have to split a marriage which does not work. This had been recognized over 45 years ago by another . .more

by Plodder on July 21 2007, 20:53
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

The plot thickens, intriguing!
Let’s see, as far as common ground goes moving forward, I would agree, there doesn’t seem to be which I think will lead to the “moering mekaar” down the line. Looks inevitable, and given the demographics of SA could be quiet a bun fight unlike Zim. . .more

by nth_bridge on July 21 2007, 22:36
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

Not all Bantu are silly
... Jack should not expect black people to become miraculously white or westernized over-night, “at the flick of a switch” as he put it. Silly Bantoe ne!

... those that reason you will not find walking in the streets with the lower end . .more

by Plodder on July 22 2007, 08:05
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it






I think we've got one of those Swiss German twins online...
You know, representatives of the purest race on earth...
Threw fireworks from the Jameson Hall gallery at Desmond Tutu and aligned themselves with the bravest of the brave (not) of wannabe Colin Eglin assassins: Scorpio!
Oh Plodder, go . .more

by Oooooooh guts on July 22 2007, 07:37
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it

In agreement.
Not with you Plodder, but the comment above. For goodness sake, if this comes close to crossing the line...never mind, I thought I was getting a little closer to where your head was at, but somewhat relieved to hear that not all Bantoe are on your . .more

by nth-Bridge on July 22 2007, 14:49
Find this comment inappropriate? Report it




Name
Subject
Comment